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YOUNG TOM...
bless you...many thanks...if this is becoming too much of a job for you however, perhaps we can pass the burden on to someone else OR maybe there is some automatic way of doing it??
HERVE....CATHY
hmmmm, i will have to think about that one...waxing eloquent about the merits of one single photograph or a visual "analysis" would i doubt enlighten either Cathy or you...that is what happens in "camera clubs" where "rules" get applied and then everyone starts thinking they must go out and "reproduce" what someone said was GOOD about any given picture...
besides, an element that i may like in one picture, i may not like in another...it would depend on the overall juxtaposition of elements and the emotional response thereof...
critique is often/mostly instinctive ...instinctive based on viewing lots of work, and just a GUT REACTION to an image ...surely as INSTINCTIVE AS SHOOTING THE PHOTOGRAPH IN THE FIRST PLACE...i never tell a photographer exactly what to shoot...i want them to be instinctive/personal...the same goes for critique...
i never KNOW what a good picture will be, but i know it when i see it....great pictures are SURPRISES...great pictures trigger something visceral that is hard to describe in words...that is why they are great pictures!!!
i have a feeling that if i took one picture and broke it down into the "whys" of being "good" that Cathy and you might be more confused than ever...particularly on line...in person editing, choosing etc is so so different than what can be done here..some here who have had me edit and choose in person seriously know the difference and have said so...
if you had to do an analysis of why the Mona Lisa was "good", what would you say beyond "it is about the look in her eyes"....????
and then if you wrote about that on your blog and then everyone started painting portraits trying to "get a look in the eyes", your critique might have been self defeating...
i do know this for sure...photographers trying to "LEARN PHOTOGRAPHY" in the same linear way that they CAN learn about how to repair the engine on a 747 are in for disappointment...repairing the engine of a 747 can be TAUGHT...there is a PROCEDURE...only one way to clean the injectors for example..hairline cracks in the blades mean replacement...pure and simple...linear..
many photographers are guilty of trying to "figure it out" when what they really need to do is "shoot it out"....
among others, the essays of Patricia, Rafal, Panos, Kyunghee, Mike, Audrey, Erica "sensitize" us one way or the other about their subjects...there is NOT much INFORMATION in any of them....there is "personality" in all of them...
my usual response either verbal or in my head when i see what i feel is a great photograph is quite simply a resounding YES YES YES...
ERICA,
nice job on your friday night report, a cool and thorough job (waw, you sure took notes!) ;)))
How was the "after-fiesta?"
I left too early (had to wake up at 5:30am + I didn't know anyone & seemed that groups were already well into each other), and missed James N., though I talked a while with Stanley Greene about a common friend (& his recent work :)
Panos is my witness..... I told you that the first and your last pictures were the very best :):):):).... My god, maybe I am becoming able to edit someone else's work :):):)....
I also thought it was a good serie.
ERICA,
Thanks again for your detailed writing of the event...Almost felt we were there....
just to make one more quick point..and it is probably the best "practical point" with regard to "good pictures"...this was illustrated clearly and best with my last class..and all classes...and all critique...
when a fine photograph would come up on the screen, everyone in the class would go "aha"..ALL would agree on the very "best" ones...a collective "yes, that is it"...visceral gut reaction...the MEDIOCRE PHOTOGRAPHS REQUIRED DISCUSSION and were usually ELIMINATED FROM THE SHOW...in other words, if you have to talk about a picture too much, it probably "ain't gonna work"... i have seen exactly the same discussions/reactions on major curated shows,during magazine layout sessions and at book structure meetings...that is just the way it is...
hope you didn't eat too many cookies waiting for the last installment..I think I myself ate too many writing it, I feel gross this a.m.!
TANGUY
You were there? I wish we had said hello..("I didn't know anyone & seemed that groups were already well into each other") please please, you, anyone else out there, when we finally have a chance at an in person meeting, come introduce yourself, the idea of not meeting someone from here makes me a bit sad. I am sure at times the 'groups' seem closely knit, but don't let that stop you. can I ask what you look like, maybe I remember seeing you..I'm tall, dark hair.. was in a little white dress, knee socks, blue scarf for part of the night..Nancy said I looked like a cheerleader, but I saw a pic Kelly took of me and I'm thinking more like Alice in Wonderland!
LEE
happy to meet you on Oct. 3rd...
SIDNEY
thank you and you are QUITE welcome, it was fun to play reporter..
PATRICIA
I am so glad you feel that way..and yes, there is an elevator and access after the steps outside, which are fewish and wide..I think it is possible for you to experience all, minus the roof.
MIKE
you must know Vodka, tell Lassal what to bring! And seriously, consider borrowing my 4x5 and shooting it handheld as M. Gowland its designer himself did..I think you'll be very happy with the results if you do it as we negotiated, fixed distance..
i would have been happy to introduce you around...we have another show coming up on Oct 3...look for the invitation here...next time, if you come, make sure i know who you are very clearly...in a crowded room and after an outrageously intense week and the outrageously intense last minute editing that we do in order to even make these programs "happen", it is very easy for me not to catch your name if we meet and relate it to the blog...
in any case, i am pleased you enjoyed the program...and you are welcomed to stop by any time and see what we do during these workshops....
i was blown away by your report....without your note taking and clear assessment, i would have forgotten much of it!!!
the one thing that would be enlightening even for you would be if you came by sometime during the week when we were actually putting it all together...to see the photographers struggle for an idea, to see the daily critique, to watch the "miracle" of discovery...and , yes, to see the chaos that precedes every powerful presentation...chaos turned into the very show you so eloquently described...
i wish we had more time to chat friday evening...you know how it is when you are the host of the party...i spend a lot of time just making sure things are ok with everyone..
I would love to come by during the week of the next workshop to see process, and I will, thank you, tell me when is a good time, anything after 5 usually works for me, any day..
but what I need to know from you is if there is a clear deadline yet for the EPF upload, I am scrambling to get things together, I need to manage my time wisely as I am really not nearly ready, have LOADS to do. And I really don't want to screw up and not be ready to my own standards.
Re: this week, do I need to have stuff to show you or are we just chilling?
You are/were a gracious, expansive (scattered!) host. You do better than anyone could expect in such circumstances (I didn't get much time with Marie, either, but that is how parties go)..I am glad the report was up to snuff. Scribbling in the dark was a challenge indeed, but I have learned to read even the worst of my own writing. And still, I saw / felt every image, so nothing lost in playing reporter..
OH, and this was left by CASEY (of Slideluck Potshow) at the end of the last thread..I meant to mention that he and Alys were there too, very excited to not miss any of the show.
CASEY, as to your first sentence, ALMOST :) You have to look for the new posts, they come without warning..but well done in getting this far!
Hey All,
I finally figured out how to negotiate DAH's site! Don't know why it took me so long to get to the meat of the melon.
Anyway, great workshop/party last night David! There was some strong student work, lots of interesting folks and the contrast between Bruce Gilden's presentation and Eugene Richards couldn't have been starker- highlighting the breadth of possibilities out there.
I actually have an update on Jason P. Howe. He just stayed with me here in NYC for three days. His face is almost completely healed, his spirits are high, and he's up on a farm for two weeks working on an outline for an autobiography he has been asked to pitch. We're having a book-signing party for him on Monday, September 29th, at my friend's place in the Lower East Side, GalleryBar. It's the same place Ashley Gilbertson did his book launch and incredible exhibition.
Jason jokes that the beating was the best possible thing that could have happened in terms of getting the attention of photo editors.
there is NOT a deadline or EPF...you have plenty of time....i have a very clear idea of who is doing what and i will not let anything "slip through the cracks"...however, just to make sure, i will create a post soonest detailing again all that will be required, and where to post on Digital Railroad etc etc long before the jury meets...
this is all about personal development of projects that i know about, have followed carefully, and are linked here either by assignments given or from the work of students in my classes....random links and presentations from photographers i do not know are also welcomed...
by the way, you may not even know that all of the students in the class whose work you viewed are members of our forum..if you view the student list, i think only Anna B. is a name you would know from comments posted here...but, as we all know, most readers just do not write...but many are doing a lot of serious work unknown to the other readers here...
yes, I do understand...maybe what I should have asked is if there is an approximate estimate of when the jury will meet..my goal is to have a MM piece together for that, which means I need to learn some things before that, and as I am so not a tech person, I need time..
I love that there are so many people who are a part of the community, whether they post or not..I do, however, want to meet them all :)
i am GUESSING that the jury would meet in mid- November...that should give everyone enough time to have their "act together"...
my biggest decision, and it is partly based on how much funding will actually come in, is whether to give one or two large stipends or several smaller ones...i can think of advantages and disadvantages to both..the other thing is whether i can just give out a stipend whenever i think it is warranted...and this may even be a legal issue..i do not know for sure...i do not know if i can just pass out stipends whenever i want..there are fairly strict legal rules on funds created under the IRS 501c3 charter, so it looks like i must have lunch with a lawyer....
Running out for a while. Then editing and getting some new work online to show here...TODAY.
If Booze, Brews titling is clear to you then great...BUT what happens is that the title comes up without any photographers name for several seconds and THEN his name comes up. Now that I know this is his name is is obvious (duh) but before seeing any images it is not super clear that this is the NAME of the photographer...could be part of the title...Just saying that someone new to this site and not part of the blog could be confused...since it's YOUR site and you have done the writing and in the beginning there is NO name attached for several seconds.
Just my take on it...only letting you know my experience with that show was not one of clarity....so suggesting there might be a way to improve.
I hesitate to jump into this discussion because I am working under a tight deadline, but I just wanted you both to know that you are not alone in sometimes being mystified by David's sensibilities (and not just his, in my case, but much of the art photography world's). And I appreciate and share your desire to hear more about "why?"... But I also think I understand David's dilemma, and why it has to be hands on and in context.
A long time back I figured out that it was most unlikely that my own personal kind of photography... what I have done up to now... would ever score a 'hit' with David or many of the other folks on this forum. Late last night when David wrote: "i will take this honesty in photography any day over trite professionalism or "mannered" photography or the boring didactic...", I got that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that he was contrasting the work of say Panos or Patricia to my own.
I admire David greatly as a photographer and even more as a teacher, and it's natural that I would like to see the world of photography more through his eyes, and also gain his approval (let's be honest)... And I confess that one of the things that this forum has done from time to time is make me doubt my own work, and want to do something... 'more like so-and-so's'... There's a fine line between being 'influenced', 'stimulated' or 'redirected' by what we see and trying to imitate or reproduce it. I've had to wrestle with this... and I can tell from your comments and some of your work that this is something you occasionally are wrestling with. But I think that's a natural and inevitable process.
Also, those of us clamoring for David's critiques, insights, and (dare I say it...?) possible approval... maybe need to remember the sheer volume of photography this guy has to look at, day in and day out, and has looked at day in and day out, over more than four decades...
My own tentative answer is just to shoot more, get further into my own interests... and hopefully try to get beyond my own (somewhat rigid, I now realize) conditioning as a photographer... instead of 'trying' to take certain kinds of pictures, just to get lost in the process of photographing, until something new and different happens... even though I am not particularly 'loose', I understand what 'loose' means and when it is happening... and when, as may occasionally happen if I'm lucky, I come up with something that I feel is 'wow!' instead of 'it's getting there...', then I don't really care what anybody else thinks. But mysteriously, it's likely that others may also think 'wow!' Or at least 'yes...' But for me to get there means shooting and more shooting, getting beyond taking all the conditioned pictures and approaches and effects in my head, trying new stuff, abandoning conscious control, getting lost in that viewfinder, forgetting about what I'm 'trying' to do... maybe that is a kind of 'loose'?
I hope this doesn't sound preachy to either of you, Cathy or Herve, because I'm really sitting on your side of the aisle in this situation, and wanted you to know you are not alone.
MY site is totally about the work of OTHER photographers...always has been...
there has never been MY work under the Movies section...the only place i have very little work is under Galleries or sometimes Work in Progress but primarily on the Magnum website...
anyway, i tried to explain to you how titles/authors are generally displayed on books, movies etc etc...they are done this way almost always...the author name faded in is the way most people recognize who the author is ,.but , maybe after the title on the header and before the show starts , i will make yet another byline so there will be no confusion for you and perhaps others...
i look forward to your new work....i hope you do not confuse me!!
"this is all about personal development of projects that i know about, have followed carefully, and are linked here either by assignments given or from the work of students in my classes....random links and presentations from photographers i do not know are also welcomed..."
Right when you asked people to volunteer for assignments (around may) and even if I was not one of the few people you named for doing it, I went to Senegal and started working on mine. I made the first approach to my subject which required some permissions and several meetings to get the trust of people involved. Then I started shooting and came back with the first part of the assignment done. While in Perpignan I tried to show it to you and know your opinion, to see if it may work, the things I need to improve... all of that. But I wasn't lucky and you couldn't see it and give me your opinion. Just as planned I will continue the work and will finish it with a second part of the job that will involve a deeper approach into the subject.
I know you said we all will have a place for our work on Digital Railroad. Just wanted to make sure that you know that even if you did not see it, I've been working on it and plan to keep on working until it is finished.
and the way you are thinking is EXACTLY the thinking process i try to set up with every photographer i mentor...
surely, you should not try to be Panos, nor should Panos be you...that is the whole point...i just want to get the best YOU out of YOU...that is all...you may not think so, but i totally understand you and where you are coming from and your aesthetic and the reasons for your aesthetic...and even though it will take much longer on line to get you "jump started" than if we had some time together, i am committed to giving it a try... to push you into your NEXT STEP without re-wiring your hard drive...
many thanks always for your insights and your ability to articulate clearly the current forum "scenario"....
i have no idea why i did not see your Senegal work in Perpignan....a great oversight on my part since i spent more time with you than almost anyone!!! i literally edited every single forum photographer who brought me work that i knew about...how did we miss on this one??? i sat there with you for more than an hour on that last day and i do not recall you saying "David, look at this"...well, maybe you were just too polite...and sometimes i just miss the "hint"...so sorry, i would love to have seen your Senegal (one of my favorite countries) and i will make sure you are fully aware of where to have it on Digital Railroad so we can at least have an on line discussion..and your work will be fully considered for EPF...
PATRICIA, thanks. I photographed the dancers after just being stopped and searched under the anti-terrorism law! On the other side of the town hall building (in the background) is the location of the Labour Party political conference and apparently I'd pointed my lens in the direction of where the delegates were staying. It was no problem; very polite and I got a copy of the stop and search notice to show if I was stopped again.
What you think about called "art photography" where images were created like Rinke Dijkstra, or Shindy Sherman, Loretta Lux ect.
It mean something to you?
Did you have students who wanted shoot very conceptual or contemporary way?
well, the three photographers you mentioned (Sherman, Lux, Dijksta) are all portrait photographers..so, they are one kind of conceptual photographer, but not the only kind....and i respect the work of all three although i must say i only know the bullfight portraits of Dijksta..maybe she has something more i do not know about..i will research more...
when you see the slide show of my last class which will be posted soonest under Movies , you will see several conceptual photographers...
i try to get all of my students and photographers i mentor to PUSH AWAY from "standard photojournalism" and into more conceptual work..but, i find that very few photographers can actually conceptualize...
many photographers (maybe even most photographers) are totally terrified of their own creative freedom...
having the freedom i give them to say what they want to say, leaves many realizing they have no idea what to say...
what they may have wanted to say got buried back in their childhood, or they just cannot tap into their subconscious...
most people have spent their adult lives having to fit into the "box"...getting them out of it is my job, and my most difficult job...
however, the greatest reward i can have as a "guide" is when i see someone finally "light up" and trigger something deep down inside and allows them have their "voice"...
i hope you will see at least some of this in the slide show upcoming...
ERIC... yes im your witness...
( you do have a real "editors" eye ... you totally
matched DAH's opinion... 1st & 10th... photo...
although i was going with no2 or 3... agree with Gina & Michael R..
& Patricia..
& Marcin's painter's eye liked the no1...
( havent read all comments yet... making turkish coffee...
right now...
David... i know you are crazy busy with the workshop...
but thank you again for having a minute to critique and EDIT...
i feel honored and obliged to drive back to venice right after
this coffee...
ok... and once again for whoever missed my "DARK KIDS" link from last night...
of course, you may update...i am looking for fine photographers...this is not a contest....this is trying to find and support worthy photographers ...period
man.... shoot please ( for me ) ... some snapshots,
and send me a link... im a little homesick right now...
although how can a "homeless" be "homesick"????
lol... at my own expense right now...
& Young Tom,
thank you for backing up the blog.......
i WANTED to like #3 also...but, i felt #1 and #10 did the same thing a bit better... i can see why #3 would appeal to some..i liked it too....but for me it is one of those pictures that looks good at first, but then wears thin finally in the context of your overall energy....i mean, if you have #1 (very painterly also) do you really need #3??? think of how you actually want this to appear in print..anyway, maybe i will change my mind by the time i get to L.A.!!
even your critics HAVE to be totally amazed by your commitment and energy and drive and stick to it always approach to your Venice Beach...NOBODY is "on the case" as are you...
do not let this go to your head....remember at all times...HUBRIS....
remember, i show up in late November, so please have some small prints of all of your work ready to edit...can you do this??
thanks for the great report...almost feel as if i were there....which i guess i will be next time....(want pics too to see)...
PANOS:
yes, love the dark kids series too....more words for you privately :)))
ALL:
i've read all the comments i missed in last 2 day....and honestly (maybe it was the retreat, maybe it's my increasingly changing idea/approach/state-of-mind to all the stuff coming down (efp, most notably), but i feel a bit of sadness this morning...not really sadness (im on a retreat joy high and hope to infect y'all) but it seems that so much suffering that is incurred here could be simplified....
1) i saw the movie on the opening page and totally don't understand Cathy's concern...none of those movies (except the NG) contains DAH work and in fact, i read that movie section as the place others will see work generated by this blog or workshops....that's pretty clear on the opening frame that says: Bs,Bs, BBQ: Michael Loyd Young...and the long quote from harvey (which i believe is from this blog when he was in the delta): it's so clear this is Michaels work (Michael i enjoyed it very much and have lost totally the desire to write here more specifically, but let me just say that i really enjoy the story of this song...a form of music that has alot of personal connection to my life and family)...just dont get the problem...
for the herve/cathy discussion on deciding on what constitutes imagery or strong work...also the discussion that Sidney has (related to this), i guess i am also at a complete loss as to why this comes up....David is a great photographer but also there is work that david gets and doesnt get, just as there is work that each of us get and dont get and some of this has to do with the specifics of what we "think" of as strong photography or what we "feel" as strong photography (image, story, content), but this shifts for all all people, all photographers...for both Herve and Sidney, i am actually a bit surprised...since both of you seem to have deep undersanding and appreication of Asia and India...Are you guys familiar with the Four Aims of Life?...From Sanskrit, the Hindu tradition define the 4 essences (from which everything else comes, including of course Buddhism) as (i wont be really pretentious by using the sanskrit: 1)our nescience (human ability to know things, 2) our self-centered "knowledge" (we know the world in the west through "I" -- (the complete opposite of the western's cognito ergo sum) which leads to our complete delusion 3) the training to unbreak our allusion and 4) the need to gather awakening not from one's self but through one's self...in other words, in India (and of course later through brahamnism, buddhism, jainism, taoism, etc) the fundamental understanding of "awareness/knowledge" is different...in other words, beginning with Descarte's Cognito, in the west we take our understanding of truth (religion/science) as coming from "I": our self-directed discoveries...but in Indian tradition, the I is actually the point as which only delusion is reached, so it's in direct opposition to the west (many who love eastern philosophies, in india and far west, never fully understand this: they still try to understand through our own frame of reference...the essential paradox of these ideas is that in hoping to understand through our thoughts our awareness, our intellect, we will only continue to fail (suffer) to escape our delusions and confusions...well,, of course this is a total simplication but, i've been reading Heinrich Zimmer''s book "philosophies of india" and other works as i work on my own practice, but i think asking David to explain what is necessary good about patricia and panos' work as a means for all three of you to find what is "good" about your is asking the wrong question...someone once asked me, "bob, how come you always love everyone's work, especially when your own work is different..." i said: " i dont know, i just love work that comes into me, and how things come into me are for a great variety of reasons..."....
i think all 3 of you make some wonderful work and i also think all three of you often fight with yourself...especially visually...well, feel this often with cathy and sidney...i dont feel this with Herve, because when i see his work (in asia) it feels very calm and very strong and very confident and thus, it enters me...funny, his pictures speak to me much more than when he writes ;)))...it's like he's 2 people...Herve, are u a buddhist too?...i wonder....anyway, sidney there were pics i really liked in your parade series and as i've made a promise not to write criticially (i mean analysis) on the blog anymore (my personal pledge to myself), i'd love to meet in person some time...
in the end, i think the attempt to make work that speaks to David will end in failure because it will not be work that speaks to you...i love and admire david as a photographer, but i dont think i've ever thought: im gonna make a picture to see if it will be appreciated by david. i want to make work that David see's is my commitment to my life, as a member, to make work that i believe in, as a sign of commitment toward what i am...but, i think often the questions asked (questions always good), might take u further away from the heart that is, white lotus, emerging from the water...
and lastly, a buddhist hero: Chekawa (1101-1175 CE)....from which many of the ideas of Tonglen come from....
my take on EFP...
Gain and Victory to Others,
Loss and Defeat to Oneself
Hmmm... I am curious which "box" I am in... Yes... I remember Im torturing myself... I'm joking... :)
I just wondering, Art world is very closed, and you have to exactly know that you make "art photography".
Art world is weird.
But somehow I understand it.
And definitely I am not able to disscus about without english language.
All and David (you probably are bussy, but if you have time)
I do almost everyday snapshots called "Details" or "no reason to go out there" :)
If anyone have time to look at I post almost everyday. Just photography without reason. Like sketches to novel.
many thanks for taking THIS ONE on!!! i feel as though i have said more or less the same thing many many times for the last year and a half and this philosophy of "being who YOU are" is my whole utter and entire philosophy... but you are so so much better at articulating it than i..
OR, it is like my sons...if my brother, Uncle Gary says EXACTLY the same thing i do to them, then my boys LISTEN...
An interesting discussion developing here...I just returned from a hike and was thinking the entire time about the same things you and Sidney have written here and have a statement to make which may help clarify a few things...coming up right away.
In the meantime...just one comment for Bob personally...
"for both Herve and Sidney, i am actually a bit surprised...since both of you seem to have deep undersanding and appreication of Asia and India"
Not sure why this was directed to them seperately...But if it was only based on their connnection to Asia, perhaps you are not aware of the past 13 years I have spent visiting/living in India? I think also when Herve and I have had discussions about Advaita Vedanta and the like...I shared about this recently under "War Photographer"... you have somehow missed the conversations.
In any case I do have a Hindu story coming up in my next post. Hope you enjoy it! :))
i wish you had numbers to identify..but, i liked :
tiger
woman wall
white walls
woman mirror
white woman
legs
where have you been hiding these pictures?? any of them from "Hometown"??? what is happening with Hometown???
random pictures are never really random when you are coming from a particular consciousness...these all FIT together somehow...
maybe the only problem i see with you Marcin, and i like you very much you know, is to FINISH what you start...please try to finish something...you are a talented photographer for sure....i just want to see you with a completed body of work...whatever you want, but totally finished...this is always absolutely the hardest part of being an artist...artists get passionate, but artists also get distracted and go for the next new passion...showing your passion in a complete manner will require you to put your head into the wind and suffer and get the dammed thing DONE!! hey, i hate the final process too, but it is 100% necessary...i say this to you only as a friend....please take it from that standpoint....
DAH
When you say:
'having the freedom i give them to say what they want to say, leaves many realizing they have no idea what to say...
what they may have wanted to say got buried back in their childhood, or they just cannot tap into their subconscious...
most people have spent their adult lives having to fit into the "box"...getting them out of it is my job, and my most difficult job...'
I joined the forum for the reasons you explain there.
I was thinking to all theses things, and i was alone (this is hard to speak photography/philosophy, not everybody can speak that way).
So when i discovered this blog, i was happy cause it was a great way to learn, and not being alone. I joined after seeing you in Perpignan, and, for me, the most important thing, and my reason to be there is LEARNING and SHARING about HOW TO GET OUT OF THE BOX??? Thank you very much for making it possible. We go faster and better when not alone...
I would like to say you that for the moment, i have the need to work on personnal 'archive', and maybe stop photographying for a while...the need to breath...to come back with more love, more peace, more understanding; so i'll stay on the blog, but please don't mind if i'm not working on a real project for now, if i have nothing to show for the moment.
peace
PANOS
thank you! It's all about doing it MY WAY, that's the most difficult...That is why i like your work (not everything-but i like your last serie 'Dark Child'), but i respect a lot your work 'cause you're photographying YOUR way.
peace
BOB
;-) nice to talk with you!
DAVID B.
Yeah, i'm lucky, my darkroom is very well done. I'll not use it soon, cause i must work on old photos, but someday...bored of digital...Yes, all this gear cost nothing nowadays; the big issue is time and motivation for making prints...
Totally agree with you, the lack of $$$ can be a way to go deeper, being more creative.
David, not sure why we shoudl be confused. You rightfully encourage us to look at succesful photograph(er)s to see what has worked, what has not, study (not copy, as you wrote) them.
I am sure we all do, but just for myself, I read books that talk about photographs, very rarely is it about dissecting every inch of the frame, like the race of an olympic winner. But definitely, they offer insights, about what is in the frame, outside of it too (cultural, literarure referneces and etc...). It never occured to me these become rules to follow to make a good picture.
I also never got the impression than anyone here, you the first, thinks there is one way of taking pictures, ie. the DAH way (maybe some lurker, but by now, they must have left). I actually think this is what unites us, on the face of the so many idiosyncratic and simply different ways to approach taking a picture.
What you are saying is that there is no tangible way for you to SPEAK ABOUT, let's forget demonstrate, how someone's picture becomes succesful in your eyes. Or maybe just not online?
ERICA
I read your comment about Grateful Dead! Sometimes we live things, and after we wonder 'maybe i could have done something more serious'...I understand you...but sometimes it's good to LIVE really things, maybe theses moments whithout camera make you feel the event better, and this is why your photos are so good??? Just a question...trying to compare your situation with mine in theses cases...
peace
I was painter for 15 years and I have 3 my own paintings now. I was sculptor as long as painter and I have no my own sculpture, I work on it last two weeks and still have nothing. I am photographer since four years and I have about 20 pictures to show. I was in morocco and I have three pictures from there, I worked at "hometown" and I have 15 pictures. I made mistake it should be work witout adress.
everything I did or do is unfinished.
unfinished is my second name.
I know this "problem" long time.
unfortunately I am who I am.
I have childish mind, very chaotic.
But I work on it.
we'll see
Thanks
Btw, I said it before, you know you can say anything you want to me, You don't have to be gently, I appreciate.
Great to read your remarks. I hope this conversation can be something we can enjoy and share in…for the good of all…not something to dread or feel sadness about. BOB I didn’t really get why you would be sad about anything that has the potential to “open” us or move us forward either as a group or individually.
Here is the analogy that came to me on the hike this am. A Hindu story about people getting caught up in Maya (illusion) that for me seems to be a personal statement as to what I am doing here. There is the potential when reading this for others to think I am making some sort of judgement about THEM but I assure you when I am writing about the “villagers” in this story I AM REFERRING TO MYSELF ONLY. We all have our own paths here…I am describing mine…I invite all to read and join in the conversation. So here is the paraphrased story…some of you will know it already….
A generous King (David) invites the entire village to his castle to share in his wealth. When the villagers enter the castle they partake of the food, wine and other offerings and no one ever makes it to the chamber of the King to receive his gifts. They get caught up in Maya and forget why they have come.
I am right here in the Castle for the gifts our King David has to share and need to be clear (with myself) that I can’t go back to my childhood pattern of fearing to raise my hand to ask a question…because maybe the teacher won’t like the question or I’ll look dumb for asking it or someone won’t like me, etc…Maybe I am seen as a pain in the ass but if I can get into David’s head (as he says he strives to do with us) then I can’t worry about my personal feelings if he’s tough with me....or if any of you others are. I say what I say here because of my passion for photography and my desire to learn and grow. If anyone else here can gain something from what I say...GREAT. I know how much I have gained from being here so this doesn't seem like the time to "shut up and behave myself" so to speak.
"learning" about photography is not linear..at least , not "learning" about what you may be able to do or not do with regard to expressing yourself best with pictures...therefore the "ways of linear learning" cannot generally be applied...
when i am in class and a picture comes up on the screen, i do often go through the visual elements and can easily describe what works or what does not work both aesthetically and technically...i do this certainly on the first and second days, but that discussion is certainly way way over by the last day..i think this is what you want...whenever i see you next, i will give it a try with your work...yes, it is difficult to re-create this kind of basic critique on line...the conversation between me and the photographer sitting right there in front of me talking about the same picture cannot be duplicated on line in any way that i can imagine...
"i will take this honesty in photography any day over trite professionalism or "mannered" photography or the boring didactic...", I got that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that he was contrasting the work of say Panos or Patricia to my own.
--------------------------
Sidney, I feel your pain :-))))))))
JOKING. Trust in yourself, man, no one can tell you and especially box you in. Remember, it's all done in the spirit of conversation, I would not take David's word as theorema. Just illustration to a point he is manking at the moment he is making it. Gee, Natl Geo is full of straight, nice professional photography. A lot straighter than Patricia's Bob's, or Panos's.... :-)))), a lot more and by great photographers (not mannered, boring or ..what else did he say?).
Where David has a point, is to deride mindless photography. Pictures that anyone can take. Bad, good, whatever. Photographs that have no special engagement from the photographer (and you can turn that around by making it your very own personal way to take pictures. Your intent/rebelliousness ruling over perceived inaneness).
In any case, and certainly not talking for myself, we will know in 20 years, who made a nice run and who really held the pace (1). Atget wa a straight photographer, employed as such by the City of Paris and painters needing a backdrop (if I recall), before he was discovered a poet. Just a few months before he died.
(1) here, following the "highest standard" quote from David. Photography that becomes meaningful to more than a coterie.
in other words, if you have to talk about a picture too much, it probably "ain't gonna work"...
----------------------
nonsense, david. depends the context people are gathered for. Ina good day, Me or Bob, others, but we 2 I am sure, can write about a photo that touched us deeply, for pages. I am sure someone did that with a book. Geoffrey Dyer did this in a much fascinating way, that reconciled me with the diea of shooting the exact same subject as countless before (striving not to make it the same photo, of course).
WOW, now we are talking, I have not gone half of what has been written this morning, following our little poking from Cathy and I. The blog as I just LOOOOOVE IT. ;-)
"but i think asking David to explain what is necessary good about patricia and panos' work as a means for all three of you to find what is "good" about your is asking the wrong question"
I can only speak for myself...but I don't believe I have ever done this. I am interested in seeing what David sees when looking at Panos' work so I can try to see it too. I want to see what he is seeing but as far as "applying" anything anyone else is doing to my own work...hmmm...don't think so. Unless I am misunderstanding you?
for all three of you to find what is "good" about your is asking the wrong question...
---------------------------
Bob, once again, you read what you want in something that, at least I, never wrote. Who said we needed David's lecture on a picture to make up our own?!?!?
What is wrong with asking people, here David, to just go beyond a one-liner, and expound a bit on a picture, or whatever they see in what someone is doing?
Asia, India? these are not in books, lectures, and recitations. These are EXPERIENCES. Read our beloved Campbell, that is all he says after all is said, done, read and...Learnt!
THAT WOULD BE A TYPO...i meant it for all 3 of u, since i know all 3 of you have deep knowledge, experience and travel with India/Far East (or would that be far West ;)) )...i meant actually, that Herve's photographs always seem to "accept" what they are and they also seem very cleary to be what he wants/shows...with you and Sidney, you always seem to be frustrated by your work, in other words, often making work that fights with itself :))...hmmm, how can i put that, since each person wrestles with themselves and struggles with themselves...i guess i meant that the work of all 3 of you that enters me and that I like (and each of you have made photographs and series of work that i feel very deeply and adore), only that for some reason Herve often seems to be not so much seeking David's "advice" to all...wait, this sounds so stupid now...(stupid online shit): I meant that i was surprised that the "need" to have David point how what makes Panos or Patricia or (you fill in the blank) other photos speak cannot always be prescribed or written about: it's easier to speak about what "doesn't" work than what does ;))))..I have immense respect for you and sidney and Herve, for your ideas, your lives and your experiences...
funny, i always think of your work as your pics from India, always...and was interested to see how the cowboy/home project pics different...in "feeling" not "content"...but, i meant to lump all 3 of you, since i know how much India (hindu, jainism, buddhism) mean to all 3 of you, as much as they do to me and that's why i alluded to them, 'cause i thought that orientation might be a way for each of u to enter your struggle with your own work....
HERVE:
I LOVE THE DYER BOOK...a bible :))))
SIDNEY:
I HOPE U WEREN'T OFFENDED WITH ME :)))...just wanted to jump in and add some support (my long post was meant to do that, not to discourage)...
so, CATHY, i'll never NOT refer to India again without invoking you :))))))))))....
as for the sadness...I mean, really, im super open, super sensitivity to people's sadness or struggles right now...it's all the metta i've been doing, so i just felt sad that there seemed to be so much struggle with you guys, when i want to say:
get back to a more richer form: the non-thinking part of who you 3 are, since that part of you (india/asia) is such a rich part of all 3 of your lives:
however, please note (and there must be some pro teachers out there who know the "kid in class" who requires the most attention...yes???):
i think many members of this forum would agree that i have spent many more hours, minutes, on the keyboard answering your questions above all others....not to mention private e-mails..i could be wrong, but this is a matter of record, so i think i am right on this one..
so getting "into the chamber" for the feast or gifts certainly cannot be something that you feel has alluded you...
perhaps if you sense some frustration on my part it is because often i feel that we are in exactly the SAME PLACE as over a year ago...
with exactly the SAME DIALOGUE and questions....
i also feel (perhaps incorrectly) that you could not possibly have read a comment i just wrote to you..sometimes i read your comment back to me and i think "omg , Cathy did NOT even read what i wrote or she could not possibly be asking me the same thing again"...
AND, rarely do we really have any of your work to discuss..so almost all discussions are totally hypothetical..the worst kind of photo discussion!!!
surely you have read the discussions i have had with the photographers here shooting essays (Erica, Patricia,James,Jonathan, Panos, Kyunghee, Rafal, David M. etc etc)...they shoot...we chat...they shoot some more...things move forward...so, we actually have some very nice essays going...
i would like nothing more than for you to be a part of it...i have always said this to you both on line and in person...
please simply post a link to new work and i will look...as do all of us here...yes, i may miss something, but i always catch up...
one thing i do know as a guide/teacher....a professorial truism...and i know this because at the Natgeo workshops i get "reviewed" by the students...there is a 100% guarantee that if i receive a "bad review" from a student, it is the one who demanded the most attention AND is, in fact, the one i spent the most time with...some cups cannot be filled...
now, before you slam the door and never speak to me again...(yes, i get that too!!)...just think about all of the above...i mean, is there part of any of it ringing true???
you know when we met in person in Santa Fe, i so enjoyed meeting you...so, i really liked you...your real life persona is totally cool...we had a lot of good laughs etc etc and good vibes all around...but, sometimes on line we totally misunderstand each other i think...i cannot explain this at all...
anyway, before we "break up" right here in front of everyone, let's try again....please send your link...please try to interpret me in a positive light and i do the same with you...
YOUNG TOM...
bless you...many thanks...if this is becoming too much of a job for you however, perhaps we can pass the burden on to someone else OR maybe there is some automatic way of doing it??
HERVE....CATHY
hmmmm, i will have to think about that one...waxing eloquent about the merits of one single photograph or a visual "analysis" would i doubt enlighten either Cathy or you...that is what happens in "camera clubs" where "rules" get applied and then everyone starts thinking they must go out and "reproduce" what someone said was GOOD about any given picture...
besides, an element that i may like in one picture, i may not like in another...it would depend on the overall juxtaposition of elements and the emotional response thereof...
critique is often/mostly instinctive ...instinctive based on viewing lots of work, and just a GUT REACTION to an image ...surely as INSTINCTIVE AS SHOOTING THE PHOTOGRAPH IN THE FIRST PLACE...i never tell a photographer exactly what to shoot...i want them to be instinctive/personal...the same goes for critique...
i never KNOW what a good picture will be, but i know it when i see it....great pictures are SURPRISES...great pictures trigger something visceral that is hard to describe in words...that is why they are great pictures!!!
i have a feeling that if i took one picture and broke it down into the "whys" of being "good" that Cathy and you might be more confused than ever...particularly on line...in person editing, choosing etc is so so different than what can be done here..some here who have had me edit and choose in person seriously know the difference and have said so...
if you had to do an analysis of why the Mona Lisa was "good", what would you say beyond "it is about the look in her eyes"....????
and then if you wrote about that on your blog and then everyone started painting portraits trying to "get a look in the eyes", your critique might have been self defeating...
i do know this for sure...photographers trying to "LEARN PHOTOGRAPHY" in the same linear way that they CAN learn about how to repair the engine on a 747 are in for disappointment...repairing the engine of a 747 can be TAUGHT...there is a PROCEDURE...only one way to clean the injectors for example..hairline cracks in the blades mean replacement...pure and simple...linear..
many photographers are guilty of trying to "figure it out" when what they really need to do is "shoot it out"....
among others, the essays of Patricia, Rafal, Panos, Kyunghee, Mike, Audrey, Erica "sensitize" us one way or the other about their subjects...there is NOT much INFORMATION in any of them....there is "personality" in all of them...
my usual response either verbal or in my head when i see what i feel is a great photograph is quite simply a resounding YES YES YES...
cheers, david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 08:30 AM
ERICA,
nice job on your friday night report, a cool and thorough job (waw, you sure took notes!) ;)))
How was the "after-fiesta?"
I left too early (had to wake up at 5:30am + I didn't know anyone & seemed that groups were already well into each other), and missed James N., though I talked a while with Stanley Greene about a common friend (& his recent work :)
Great thing you have going there David! Thanks.
Going to Fire I. Have a great sunday ALL!
Tanguy.
Posted by: Tanguy | September 21, 2008 at 08:38 AM
PANOS/ DAVID,
Panos is my witness..... I told you that the first and your last pictures were the very best :):):):).... My god, maybe I am becoming able to edit someone else's work :):):)....
I also thought it was a good serie.
ERICA,
Thanks again for your detailed writing of the event...Almost felt we were there....
Cheers,
Eric
Posted by: Eric Espinosa | September 21, 2008 at 08:38 AM
SIMON...
thanks for the Typepad link..i should have seen it before....working on it!!
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 08:46 AM
HERVE...
just to make one more quick point..and it is probably the best "practical point" with regard to "good pictures"...this was illustrated clearly and best with my last class..and all classes...and all critique...
when a fine photograph would come up on the screen, everyone in the class would go "aha"..ALL would agree on the very "best" ones...a collective "yes, that is it"...visceral gut reaction...the MEDIOCRE PHOTOGRAPHS REQUIRED DISCUSSION and were usually ELIMINATED FROM THE SHOW...in other words, if you have to talk about a picture too much, it probably "ain't gonna work"... i have seen exactly the same discussions/reactions on major curated shows,during magazine layout sessions and at book structure meetings...that is just the way it is...
cheers, david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 09:00 AM
DAH
how did I do?
ERIC
hope you didn't eat too many cookies waiting for the last installment..I think I myself ate too many writing it, I feel gross this a.m.!
TANGUY
You were there? I wish we had said hello..("I didn't know anyone & seemed that groups were already well into each other") please please, you, anyone else out there, when we finally have a chance at an in person meeting, come introduce yourself, the idea of not meeting someone from here makes me a bit sad. I am sure at times the 'groups' seem closely knit, but don't let that stop you. can I ask what you look like, maybe I remember seeing you..I'm tall, dark hair.. was in a little white dress, knee socks, blue scarf for part of the night..Nancy said I looked like a cheerleader, but I saw a pic Kelly took of me and I'm thinking more like Alice in Wonderland!
LEE
happy to meet you on Oct. 3rd...
SIDNEY
thank you and you are QUITE welcome, it was fun to play reporter..
PATRICIA
I am so glad you feel that way..and yes, there is an elevator and access after the steps outside, which are fewish and wide..I think it is possible for you to experience all, minus the roof.
MIKE
you must know Vodka, tell Lassal what to bring! And seriously, consider borrowing my 4x5 and shooting it handheld as M. Gowland its designer himself did..I think you'll be very happy with the results if you do it as we negotiated, fixed distance..
HERVE, ANA :)
Posted by: erica mcdonald | September 21, 2008 at 09:15 AM
TANGUY...
i would have been happy to introduce you around...we have another show coming up on Oct 3...look for the invitation here...next time, if you come, make sure i know who you are very clearly...in a crowded room and after an outrageously intense week and the outrageously intense last minute editing that we do in order to even make these programs "happen", it is very easy for me not to catch your name if we meet and relate it to the blog...
in any case, i am pleased you enjoyed the program...and you are welcomed to stop by any time and see what we do during these workshops....
cheers, david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 09:16 AM
ERICA...
i was blown away by your report....without your note taking and clear assessment, i would have forgotten much of it!!!
the one thing that would be enlightening even for you would be if you came by sometime during the week when we were actually putting it all together...to see the photographers struggle for an idea, to see the daily critique, to watch the "miracle" of discovery...and , yes, to see the chaos that precedes every powerful presentation...chaos turned into the very show you so eloquently described...
i wish we had more time to chat friday evening...you know how it is when you are the host of the party...i spend a lot of time just making sure things are ok with everyone..
anyway, perhaps we meet sometime this week???
cheers, david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 09:24 AM
DAH
I would love to come by during the week of the next workshop to see process, and I will, thank you, tell me when is a good time, anything after 5 usually works for me, any day..
but what I need to know from you is if there is a clear deadline yet for the EPF upload, I am scrambling to get things together, I need to manage my time wisely as I am really not nearly ready, have LOADS to do. And I really don't want to screw up and not be ready to my own standards.
Re: this week, do I need to have stuff to show you or are we just chilling?
You are/were a gracious, expansive (scattered!) host. You do better than anyone could expect in such circumstances (I didn't get much time with Marie, either, but that is how parties go)..I am glad the report was up to snuff. Scribbling in the dark was a challenge indeed, but I have learned to read even the worst of my own writing. And still, I saw / felt every image, so nothing lost in playing reporter..
Posted by: erica mcdonald | September 21, 2008 at 09:38 AM
OH, and this was left by CASEY (of Slideluck Potshow) at the end of the last thread..I meant to mention that he and Alys were there too, very excited to not miss any of the show.
CASEY, as to your first sentence, ALMOST :) You have to look for the new posts, they come without warning..but well done in getting this far!
Hey All,
I finally figured out how to negotiate DAH's site! Don't know why it took me so long to get to the meat of the melon.
Anyway, great workshop/party last night David! There was some strong student work, lots of interesting folks and the contrast between Bruce Gilden's presentation and Eugene Richards couldn't have been starker- highlighting the breadth of possibilities out there.
I actually have an update on Jason P. Howe. He just stayed with me here in NYC for three days. His face is almost completely healed, his spirits are high, and he's up on a farm for two weeks working on an outline for an autobiography he has been asked to pitch. We're having a book-signing party for him on Monday, September 29th, at my friend's place in the Lower East Side, GalleryBar. It's the same place Ashley Gilbertson did his book launch and incredible exhibition.
Jason jokes that the beating was the best possible thing that could have happened in terms of getting the attention of photo editors.
Anyway, for those who haven't already seen it, I put up a pretty extensive post about Perpignan on the Slideluck Potshow Network site:
http://slideluckpotshow.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=2028077%3ABlogPost%3A17969
Enjoy!
Casey
Posted by: Casey Kelbaugh | September 20, 2008 at 04:43 PM
Posted by: erica mcdonald | September 21, 2008 at 09:53 AM
ok, I think i am caught up....
ERICA - thank you for the recap. i wish i could have been there...
- but will be there in 2 weeks.... looking forward to seeing you then!
PANOS - the new work is wonderfully loose and intimate. i love #3 and 10. can't wait to see the final edit of this project.
gotta go, my sunday political shows are beginning... then FOOTBALL. XO
Posted by: Gina Martin | September 21, 2008 at 10:03 AM
ERICA...
there is NOT a deadline or EPF...you have plenty of time....i have a very clear idea of who is doing what and i will not let anything "slip through the cracks"...however, just to make sure, i will create a post soonest detailing again all that will be required, and where to post on Digital Railroad etc etc long before the jury meets...
this is all about personal development of projects that i know about, have followed carefully, and are linked here either by assignments given or from the work of students in my classes....random links and presentations from photographers i do not know are also welcomed...
by the way, you may not even know that all of the students in the class whose work you viewed are members of our forum..if you view the student list, i think only Anna B. is a name you would know from comments posted here...but, as we all know, most readers just do not write...but many are doing a lot of serious work unknown to the other readers here...
cheers, david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 10:09 AM
DAH
yes, I do understand...maybe what I should have asked is if there is an approximate estimate of when the jury will meet..my goal is to have a MM piece together for that, which means I need to learn some things before that, and as I am so not a tech person, I need time..
I love that there are so many people who are a part of the community, whether they post or not..I do, however, want to meet them all :)
GINA, yea!
Posted by: erica mcdonald | September 21, 2008 at 10:28 AM
ERICA...
i am GUESSING that the jury would meet in mid- November...that should give everyone enough time to have their "act together"...
my biggest decision, and it is partly based on how much funding will actually come in, is whether to give one or two large stipends or several smaller ones...i can think of advantages and disadvantages to both..the other thing is whether i can just give out a stipend whenever i think it is warranted...and this may even be a legal issue..i do not know for sure...i do not know if i can just pass out stipends whenever i want..there are fairly strict legal rules on funds created under the IRS 501c3 charter, so it looks like i must have lunch with a lawyer....
cheers, david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 10:46 AM
DAVID...
Running out for a while. Then editing and getting some new work online to show here...TODAY.
If Booze, Brews titling is clear to you then great...BUT what happens is that the title comes up without any photographers name for several seconds and THEN his name comes up. Now that I know this is his name is is obvious (duh) but before seeing any images it is not super clear that this is the NAME of the photographer...could be part of the title...Just saying that someone new to this site and not part of the blog could be confused...since it's YOUR site and you have done the writing and in the beginning there is NO name attached for several seconds.
Just my take on it...only letting you know my experience with that show was not one of clarity....so suggesting there might be a way to improve.
Posted by: cathy scholl | September 21, 2008 at 10:56 AM
CATHY and HERVE
I hesitate to jump into this discussion because I am working under a tight deadline, but I just wanted you both to know that you are not alone in sometimes being mystified by David's sensibilities (and not just his, in my case, but much of the art photography world's). And I appreciate and share your desire to hear more about "why?"... But I also think I understand David's dilemma, and why it has to be hands on and in context.
A long time back I figured out that it was most unlikely that my own personal kind of photography... what I have done up to now... would ever score a 'hit' with David or many of the other folks on this forum. Late last night when David wrote: "i will take this honesty in photography any day over trite professionalism or "mannered" photography or the boring didactic...", I got that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that he was contrasting the work of say Panos or Patricia to my own.
I admire David greatly as a photographer and even more as a teacher, and it's natural that I would like to see the world of photography more through his eyes, and also gain his approval (let's be honest)... And I confess that one of the things that this forum has done from time to time is make me doubt my own work, and want to do something... 'more like so-and-so's'... There's a fine line between being 'influenced', 'stimulated' or 'redirected' by what we see and trying to imitate or reproduce it. I've had to wrestle with this... and I can tell from your comments and some of your work that this is something you occasionally are wrestling with. But I think that's a natural and inevitable process.
Also, those of us clamoring for David's critiques, insights, and (dare I say it...?) possible approval... maybe need to remember the sheer volume of photography this guy has to look at, day in and day out, and has looked at day in and day out, over more than four decades...
My own tentative answer is just to shoot more, get further into my own interests... and hopefully try to get beyond my own (somewhat rigid, I now realize) conditioning as a photographer... instead of 'trying' to take certain kinds of pictures, just to get lost in the process of photographing, until something new and different happens... even though I am not particularly 'loose', I understand what 'loose' means and when it is happening... and when, as may occasionally happen if I'm lucky, I come up with something that I feel is 'wow!' instead of 'it's getting there...', then I don't really care what anybody else thinks. But mysteriously, it's likely that others may also think 'wow!' Or at least 'yes...' But for me to get there means shooting and more shooting, getting beyond taking all the conditioned pictures and approaches and effects in my head, trying new stuff, abandoning conscious control, getting lost in that viewfinder, forgetting about what I'm 'trying' to do... maybe that is a kind of 'loose'?
I hope this doesn't sound preachy to either of you, Cathy or Herve, because I'm really sitting on your side of the aisle in this situation, and wanted you to know you are not alone.
Posted by: Sidney Atkins | September 21, 2008 at 11:00 AM
David - I emailed you a comp—just wanted to make sure you got that.
Posted by: David McGowan | September 21, 2008 at 11:09 AM
CATHY....
MY site is totally about the work of OTHER photographers...always has been...
there has never been MY work under the Movies section...the only place i have very little work is under Galleries or sometimes Work in Progress but primarily on the Magnum website...
anyway, i tried to explain to you how titles/authors are generally displayed on books, movies etc etc...they are done this way almost always...the author name faded in is the way most people recognize who the author is ,.but , maybe after the title on the header and before the show starts , i will make yet another byline so there will be no confusion for you and perhaps others...
i look forward to your new work....i hope you do not confuse me!!
cheers,david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 11:12 AM
DAH wrote:
"this is all about personal development of projects that i know about, have followed carefully, and are linked here either by assignments given or from the work of students in my classes....random links and presentations from photographers i do not know are also welcomed..."
Right when you asked people to volunteer for assignments (around may) and even if I was not one of the few people you named for doing it, I went to Senegal and started working on mine. I made the first approach to my subject which required some permissions and several meetings to get the trust of people involved. Then I started shooting and came back with the first part of the assignment done. While in Perpignan I tried to show it to you and know your opinion, to see if it may work, the things I need to improve... all of that. But I wasn't lucky and you couldn't see it and give me your opinion. Just as planned I will continue the work and will finish it with a second part of the job that will involve a deeper approach into the subject.
I know you said we all will have a place for our work on Digital Railroad. Just wanted to make sure that you know that even if you did not see it, I've been working on it and plan to keep on working until it is finished.
Un abrazo
Ana
Posted by: Ana Yturralde | September 21, 2008 at 11:22 AM
PATRICIA,
GOOD lap shooting! Lots of love in the photograph: well seen.
See link for some of my recent pictures, first photograph taken yesterday in Manchester, England. A bit of knee shooting.
Photo number 3 is for PANOS.
Good light,
Mike R
Posted by: Michael Rawcliffe | September 21, 2008 at 11:23 AM
SIDNEY....
great comment!!!
and the way you are thinking is EXACTLY the thinking process i try to set up with every photographer i mentor...
surely, you should not try to be Panos, nor should Panos be you...that is the whole point...i just want to get the best YOU out of YOU...that is all...you may not think so, but i totally understand you and where you are coming from and your aesthetic and the reasons for your aesthetic...and even though it will take much longer on line to get you "jump started" than if we had some time together, i am committed to giving it a try... to push you into your NEXT STEP without re-wiring your hard drive...
many thanks always for your insights and your ability to articulate clearly the current forum "scenario"....
cheers, david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 11:36 AM
MIKE R
Adore the street dancers shot! You go guy!!! And Panos' shot is spectacular! Like your eye...
Patricia
Posted by: Patricia Lay-Dorsey | September 21, 2008 at 11:37 AM
ANA....
i have no idea why i did not see your Senegal work in Perpignan....a great oversight on my part since i spent more time with you than almost anyone!!! i literally edited every single forum photographer who brought me work that i knew about...how did we miss on this one??? i sat there with you for more than an hour on that last day and i do not recall you saying "David, look at this"...well, maybe you were just too polite...and sometimes i just miss the "hint"...so sorry, i would love to have seen your Senegal (one of my favorite countries) and i will make sure you are fully aware of where to have it on Digital Railroad so we can at least have an on line discussion..and your work will be fully considered for EPF...
abrazos, besos, david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 11:43 AM
PATRICIA, thanks. I photographed the dancers after just being stopped and searched under the anti-terrorism law! On the other side of the town hall building (in the background) is the location of the Labour Party political conference and apparently I'd pointed my lens in the direction of where the delegates were staying. It was no problem; very polite and I got a copy of the stop and search notice to show if I was stopped again.
http://homepage.mac.com/mrawcliffe/manchester shows 3 photographs taken yesterday (including the dancers).
Mike R
Posted by: Michael Rawcliffe | September 21, 2008 at 11:50 AM
david
What you think about called "art photography" where images were created like Rinke Dijkstra, or Shindy Sherman, Loretta Lux ect.
It mean something to you?
Did you have students who wanted shoot very conceptual or contemporary way?
peace
Posted by: marcin luczkowski | September 21, 2008 at 11:51 AM
DAH,
can we submit " updates" from last year's workshop or not ?
Posted by: Katharina | September 21, 2008 at 11:54 AM
MARCIN...
well, the three photographers you mentioned (Sherman, Lux, Dijksta) are all portrait photographers..so, they are one kind of conceptual photographer, but not the only kind....and i respect the work of all three although i must say i only know the bullfight portraits of Dijksta..maybe she has something more i do not know about..i will research more...
when you see the slide show of my last class which will be posted soonest under Movies , you will see several conceptual photographers...
i try to get all of my students and photographers i mentor to PUSH AWAY from "standard photojournalism" and into more conceptual work..but, i find that very few photographers can actually conceptualize...
many photographers (maybe even most photographers) are totally terrified of their own creative freedom...
having the freedom i give them to say what they want to say, leaves many realizing they have no idea what to say...
what they may have wanted to say got buried back in their childhood, or they just cannot tap into their subconscious...
most people have spent their adult lives having to fit into the "box"...getting them out of it is my job, and my most difficult job...
however, the greatest reward i can have as a "guide" is when i see someone finally "light up" and trigger something deep down inside and allows them have their "voice"...
i hope you will see at least some of this in the slide show upcoming...
cheers, david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 12:18 PM
ERIC... yes im your witness...
( you do have a real "editors" eye ... you totally
matched DAH's opinion... 1st & 10th... photo...
although i was going with no2 or 3... agree with Gina & Michael R..
& Patricia..
& Marcin's painter's eye liked the no1...
( havent read all comments yet... making turkish coffee...
right now...
David... i know you are crazy busy with the workshop...
but thank you again for having a minute to critique and EDIT...
i feel honored and obliged to drive back to venice right after
this coffee...
ok... and once again for whoever missed my "DARK KIDS" link from last night...
http://web.me.com/innerspacecowpanos/%22VENICE_BEACH%22/45%29_DARK_KIDS.html
or high rez. below:
http://gallery.me.com/innerspacecowpanos#100227&bgcolor=black&view=mosaic&sel=0
ok... back reading the comments.... it seems that Erica, has a whole reportage... from last night.... let me check-e-roo......
peace & hugs ( for now )
9:20am, sunday, hel( L.A)
Posted by: panos skoulidas | September 21, 2008 at 12:20 PM
KATHARINA...
of course, you may update...i am looking for fine photographers...this is not a contest....this is trying to find and support worthy photographers ...period
cheers, david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 12:21 PM
YOUNG TOM... are you in Syros...??????
man.... shoot please ( for me ) ... some snapshots,
and send me a link... im a little homesick right now...
although how can a "homeless" be "homesick"????
lol... at my own expense right now...
& Young Tom,
thank you for backing up the blog.......
peace
Posted by: panos skoulidas | September 21, 2008 at 12:30 PM
PANOS...
i WANTED to like #3 also...but, i felt #1 and #10 did the same thing a bit better... i can see why #3 would appeal to some..i liked it too....but for me it is one of those pictures that looks good at first, but then wears thin finally in the context of your overall energy....i mean, if you have #1 (very painterly also) do you really need #3??? think of how you actually want this to appear in print..anyway, maybe i will change my mind by the time i get to L.A.!!
even your critics HAVE to be totally amazed by your commitment and energy and drive and stick to it always approach to your Venice Beach...NOBODY is "on the case" as are you...
do not let this go to your head....remember at all times...HUBRIS....
remember, i show up in late November, so please have some small prints of all of your work ready to edit...can you do this??
peace, david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 12:34 PM
ERICA:
thanks for the great report...almost feel as if i were there....which i guess i will be next time....(want pics too to see)...
PANOS:
yes, love the dark kids series too....more words for you privately :)))
ALL:
i've read all the comments i missed in last 2 day....and honestly (maybe it was the retreat, maybe it's my increasingly changing idea/approach/state-of-mind to all the stuff coming down (efp, most notably), but i feel a bit of sadness this morning...not really sadness (im on a retreat joy high and hope to infect y'all) but it seems that so much suffering that is incurred here could be simplified....
1) i saw the movie on the opening page and totally don't understand Cathy's concern...none of those movies (except the NG) contains DAH work and in fact, i read that movie section as the place others will see work generated by this blog or workshops....that's pretty clear on the opening frame that says: Bs,Bs, BBQ: Michael Loyd Young...and the long quote from harvey (which i believe is from this blog when he was in the delta): it's so clear this is Michaels work (Michael i enjoyed it very much and have lost totally the desire to write here more specifically, but let me just say that i really enjoy the story of this song...a form of music that has alot of personal connection to my life and family)...just dont get the problem...
for the herve/cathy discussion on deciding on what constitutes imagery or strong work...also the discussion that Sidney has (related to this), i guess i am also at a complete loss as to why this comes up....David is a great photographer but also there is work that david gets and doesnt get, just as there is work that each of us get and dont get and some of this has to do with the specifics of what we "think" of as strong photography or what we "feel" as strong photography (image, story, content), but this shifts for all all people, all photographers...for both Herve and Sidney, i am actually a bit surprised...since both of you seem to have deep undersanding and appreication of Asia and India...Are you guys familiar with the Four Aims of Life?...From Sanskrit, the Hindu tradition define the 4 essences (from which everything else comes, including of course Buddhism) as (i wont be really pretentious by using the sanskrit: 1)our nescience (human ability to know things, 2) our self-centered "knowledge" (we know the world in the west through "I" -- (the complete opposite of the western's cognito ergo sum) which leads to our complete delusion 3) the training to unbreak our allusion and 4) the need to gather awakening not from one's self but through one's self...in other words, in India (and of course later through brahamnism, buddhism, jainism, taoism, etc) the fundamental understanding of "awareness/knowledge" is different...in other words, beginning with Descarte's Cognito, in the west we take our understanding of truth (religion/science) as coming from "I": our self-directed discoveries...but in Indian tradition, the I is actually the point as which only delusion is reached, so it's in direct opposition to the west (many who love eastern philosophies, in india and far west, never fully understand this: they still try to understand through our own frame of reference...the essential paradox of these ideas is that in hoping to understand through our thoughts our awareness, our intellect, we will only continue to fail (suffer) to escape our delusions and confusions...well,, of course this is a total simplication but, i've been reading Heinrich Zimmer''s book "philosophies of india" and other works as i work on my own practice, but i think asking David to explain what is necessary good about patricia and panos' work as a means for all three of you to find what is "good" about your is asking the wrong question...someone once asked me, "bob, how come you always love everyone's work, especially when your own work is different..." i said: " i dont know, i just love work that comes into me, and how things come into me are for a great variety of reasons..."....
i think all 3 of you make some wonderful work and i also think all three of you often fight with yourself...especially visually...well, feel this often with cathy and sidney...i dont feel this with Herve, because when i see his work (in asia) it feels very calm and very strong and very confident and thus, it enters me...funny, his pictures speak to me much more than when he writes ;)))...it's like he's 2 people...Herve, are u a buddhist too?...i wonder....anyway, sidney there were pics i really liked in your parade series and as i've made a promise not to write criticially (i mean analysis) on the blog anymore (my personal pledge to myself), i'd love to meet in person some time...
in the end, i think the attempt to make work that speaks to David will end in failure because it will not be work that speaks to you...i love and admire david as a photographer, but i dont think i've ever thought: im gonna make a picture to see if it will be appreciated by david. i want to make work that David see's is my commitment to my life, as a member, to make work that i believe in, as a sign of commitment toward what i am...but, i think often the questions asked (questions always good), might take u further away from the heart that is, white lotus, emerging from the water...
and lastly, a buddhist hero: Chekawa (1101-1175 CE)....from which many of the ideas of Tonglen come from....
my take on EFP...
Gain and Victory to Others,
Loss and Defeat to Oneself
hugs
b
Posted by: bobblack | September 21, 2008 at 12:42 PM
Hmmm... I am curious which "box" I am in... Yes... I remember Im torturing myself... I'm joking... :)
I just wondering, Art world is very closed, and you have to exactly know that you make "art photography".
Art world is weird.
But somehow I understand it.
And definitely I am not able to disscus about without english language.
All and David (you probably are bussy, but if you have time)
I do almost everyday snapshots called "Details" or "no reason to go out there" :)
If anyone have time to look at I post almost everyday. Just photography without reason. Like sketches to novel.
http://marcinluczkowski.com/news/
hughs for all
Posted by: marcin luczkowski | September 21, 2008 at 12:54 PM
BOB....
many thanks for taking THIS ONE on!!! i feel as though i have said more or less the same thing many many times for the last year and a half and this philosophy of "being who YOU are" is my whole utter and entire philosophy... but you are so so much better at articulating it than i..
OR, it is like my sons...if my brother, Uncle Gary says EXACTLY the same thing i do to them, then my boys LISTEN...
thanks Uncle Bob.....
cheers, david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 12:58 PM
BOB...SIDNEY...
An interesting discussion developing here...I just returned from a hike and was thinking the entire time about the same things you and Sidney have written here and have a statement to make which may help clarify a few things...coming up right away.
In the meantime...just one comment for Bob personally...
"for both Herve and Sidney, i am actually a bit surprised...since both of you seem to have deep undersanding and appreication of Asia and India"
Not sure why this was directed to them seperately...But if it was only based on their connnection to Asia, perhaps you are not aware of the past 13 years I have spent visiting/living in India? I think also when Herve and I have had discussions about Advaita Vedanta and the like...I shared about this recently under "War Photographer"... you have somehow missed the conversations.
In any case I do have a Hindu story coming up in my next post. Hope you enjoy it! :))
Posted by: cathy scholl | September 21, 2008 at 01:04 PM
MARCIN...
i wish you had numbers to identify..but, i liked :
tiger
woman wall
white walls
woman mirror
white woman
legs
where have you been hiding these pictures?? any of them from "Hometown"??? what is happening with Hometown???
random pictures are never really random when you are coming from a particular consciousness...these all FIT together somehow...
maybe the only problem i see with you Marcin, and i like you very much you know, is to FINISH what you start...please try to finish something...you are a talented photographer for sure....i just want to see you with a completed body of work...whatever you want, but totally finished...this is always absolutely the hardest part of being an artist...artists get passionate, but artists also get distracted and go for the next new passion...showing your passion in a complete manner will require you to put your head into the wind and suffer and get the dammed thing DONE!! hey, i hate the final process too, but it is 100% necessary...i say this to you only as a friend....please take it from that standpoint....
fondly, david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 01:10 PM
Hi all!!!
DAH
When you say:
'having the freedom i give them to say what they want to say, leaves many realizing they have no idea what to say...
what they may have wanted to say got buried back in their childhood, or they just cannot tap into their subconscious...
most people have spent their adult lives having to fit into the "box"...getting them out of it is my job, and my most difficult job...'
I joined the forum for the reasons you explain there.
I was thinking to all theses things, and i was alone (this is hard to speak photography/philosophy, not everybody can speak that way).
So when i discovered this blog, i was happy cause it was a great way to learn, and not being alone. I joined after seeing you in Perpignan, and, for me, the most important thing, and my reason to be there is LEARNING and SHARING about HOW TO GET OUT OF THE BOX??? Thank you very much for making it possible. We go faster and better when not alone...
I would like to say you that for the moment, i have the need to work on personnal 'archive', and maybe stop photographying for a while...the need to breath...to come back with more love, more peace, more understanding; so i'll stay on the blog, but please don't mind if i'm not working on a real project for now, if i have nothing to show for the moment.
peace
PANOS
thank you! It's all about doing it MY WAY, that's the most difficult...That is why i like your work (not everything-but i like your last serie 'Dark Child'), but i respect a lot your work 'cause you're photographying YOUR way.
peace
BOB
;-) nice to talk with you!
DAVID B.
Yeah, i'm lucky, my darkroom is very well done. I'll not use it soon, cause i must work on old photos, but someday...bored of digital...Yes, all this gear cost nothing nowadays; the big issue is time and motivation for making prints...
Totally agree with you, the lack of $$$ can be a way to go deeper, being more creative.
peace for all!!!!
Posted by: Jean | September 21, 2008 at 01:12 PM
David, not sure why we shoudl be confused. You rightfully encourage us to look at succesful photograph(er)s to see what has worked, what has not, study (not copy, as you wrote) them.
I am sure we all do, but just for myself, I read books that talk about photographs, very rarely is it about dissecting every inch of the frame, like the race of an olympic winner. But definitely, they offer insights, about what is in the frame, outside of it too (cultural, literarure referneces and etc...). It never occured to me these become rules to follow to make a good picture.
I also never got the impression than anyone here, you the first, thinks there is one way of taking pictures, ie. the DAH way (maybe some lurker, but by now, they must have left). I actually think this is what unites us, on the face of the so many idiosyncratic and simply different ways to approach taking a picture.
What you are saying is that there is no tangible way for you to SPEAK ABOUT, let's forget demonstrate, how someone's picture becomes succesful in your eyes. Or maybe just not online?
Posted by: herve | September 21, 2008 at 01:22 PM
ERICA
I read your comment about Grateful Dead! Sometimes we live things, and after we wonder 'maybe i could have done something more serious'...I understand you...but sometimes it's good to LIVE really things, maybe theses moments whithout camera make you feel the event better, and this is why your photos are so good??? Just a question...trying to compare your situation with mine in theses cases...
peace
Posted by: Jean | September 21, 2008 at 01:28 PM
David
I was painter for 15 years and I have 3 my own paintings now. I was sculptor as long as painter and I have no my own sculpture, I work on it last two weeks and still have nothing. I am photographer since four years and I have about 20 pictures to show. I was in morocco and I have three pictures from there, I worked at "hometown" and I have 15 pictures. I made mistake it should be work witout adress.
everything I did or do is unfinished.
unfinished is my second name.
I know this "problem" long time.
unfortunately I am who I am.
I have childish mind, very chaotic.
But I work on it.
we'll see
Thanks
Btw, I said it before, you know you can say anything you want to me, You don't have to be gently, I appreciate.
Posted by: marcin luczkowski | September 21, 2008 at 01:39 PM
DAVID, SIDNEY, HERVE, BOB AND ALL…
Great to read your remarks. I hope this conversation can be something we can enjoy and share in…for the good of all…not something to dread or feel sadness about. BOB I didn’t really get why you would be sad about anything that has the potential to “open” us or move us forward either as a group or individually.
Here is the analogy that came to me on the hike this am. A Hindu story about people getting caught up in Maya (illusion) that for me seems to be a personal statement as to what I am doing here. There is the potential when reading this for others to think I am making some sort of judgement about THEM but I assure you when I am writing about the “villagers” in this story I AM REFERRING TO MYSELF ONLY. We all have our own paths here…I am describing mine…I invite all to read and join in the conversation. So here is the paraphrased story…some of you will know it already….
A generous King (David) invites the entire village to his castle to share in his wealth. When the villagers enter the castle they partake of the food, wine and other offerings and no one ever makes it to the chamber of the King to receive his gifts. They get caught up in Maya and forget why they have come.
I am right here in the Castle for the gifts our King David has to share and need to be clear (with myself) that I can’t go back to my childhood pattern of fearing to raise my hand to ask a question…because maybe the teacher won’t like the question or I’ll look dumb for asking it or someone won’t like me, etc…Maybe I am seen as a pain in the ass but if I can get into David’s head (as he says he strives to do with us) then I can’t worry about my personal feelings if he’s tough with me....or if any of you others are. I say what I say here because of my passion for photography and my desire to learn and grow. If anyone else here can gain something from what I say...GREAT. I know how much I have gained from being here so this doesn't seem like the time to "shut up and behave myself" so to speak.
Posted by: cathy scholl | September 21, 2008 at 01:44 PM
HERVE...
"learning" about photography is not linear..at least , not "learning" about what you may be able to do or not do with regard to expressing yourself best with pictures...therefore the "ways of linear learning" cannot generally be applied...
when i am in class and a picture comes up on the screen, i do often go through the visual elements and can easily describe what works or what does not work both aesthetically and technically...i do this certainly on the first and second days, but that discussion is certainly way way over by the last day..i think this is what you want...whenever i see you next, i will give it a try with your work...yes, it is difficult to re-create this kind of basic critique on line...the conversation between me and the photographer sitting right there in front of me talking about the same picture cannot be duplicated on line in any way that i can imagine...
we do a lot here...we cannot do it all here...
cheers, david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 01:45 PM
"i will take this honesty in photography any day over trite professionalism or "mannered" photography or the boring didactic...", I got that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that he was contrasting the work of say Panos or Patricia to my own.
--------------------------
Sidney, I feel your pain :-))))))))
JOKING. Trust in yourself, man, no one can tell you and especially box you in. Remember, it's all done in the spirit of conversation, I would not take David's word as theorema. Just illustration to a point he is manking at the moment he is making it. Gee, Natl Geo is full of straight, nice professional photography. A lot straighter than Patricia's Bob's, or Panos's.... :-)))), a lot more and by great photographers (not mannered, boring or ..what else did he say?).
Where David has a point, is to deride mindless photography. Pictures that anyone can take. Bad, good, whatever. Photographs that have no special engagement from the photographer (and you can turn that around by making it your very own personal way to take pictures. Your intent/rebelliousness ruling over perceived inaneness).
In any case, and certainly not talking for myself, we will know in 20 years, who made a nice run and who really held the pace (1). Atget wa a straight photographer, employed as such by the City of Paris and painters needing a backdrop (if I recall), before he was discovered a poet. Just a few months before he died.
(1) here, following the "highest standard" quote from David. Photography that becomes meaningful to more than a coterie.
Posted by: herve | September 21, 2008 at 01:54 PM
SIDNEY...
It didn't sound preachy at all.
"I got that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach that he was contrasting the work of say Panos or Patricia to my own."
You're not alone, my friend! :))
Posted by: cathy scholl | September 21, 2008 at 01:58 PM
And I see HERVE just posted the same comment :))
Posted by: cathy scholl | September 21, 2008 at 01:59 PM
in other words, if you have to talk about a picture too much, it probably "ain't gonna work"...
----------------------
nonsense, david. depends the context people are gathered for. Ina good day, Me or Bob, others, but we 2 I am sure, can write about a photo that touched us deeply, for pages. I am sure someone did that with a book. Geoffrey Dyer did this in a much fascinating way, that reconciled me with the diea of shooting the exact same subject as countless before (striving not to make it the same photo, of course).
WOW, now we are talking, I have not gone half of what has been written this morning, following our little poking from Cathy and I. The blog as I just LOOOOOVE IT. ;-)
Posted by: herve | September 21, 2008 at 02:02 PM
BOB...
"but i think asking David to explain what is necessary good about patricia and panos' work as a means for all three of you to find what is "good" about your is asking the wrong question"
I can only speak for myself...but I don't believe I have ever done this. I am interested in seeing what David sees when looking at Panos' work so I can try to see it too. I want to see what he is seeing but as far as "applying" anything anyone else is doing to my own work...hmmm...don't think so. Unless I am misunderstanding you?
Posted by: cathy scholl | September 21, 2008 at 02:16 PM
for all three of you to find what is "good" about your is asking the wrong question...
---------------------------
Bob, once again, you read what you want in something that, at least I, never wrote. Who said we needed David's lecture on a picture to make up our own?!?!?
What is wrong with asking people, here David, to just go beyond a one-liner, and expound a bit on a picture, or whatever they see in what someone is doing?
Asia, India? these are not in books, lectures, and recitations. These are EXPERIENCES. Read our beloved Campbell, that is all he says after all is said, done, read and...Learnt!
:-))))
Posted by: herve | September 21, 2008 at 02:20 PM
CATHY: :))
THAT WOULD BE A TYPO...i meant it for all 3 of u, since i know all 3 of you have deep knowledge, experience and travel with India/Far East (or would that be far West ;)) )...i meant actually, that Herve's photographs always seem to "accept" what they are and they also seem very cleary to be what he wants/shows...with you and Sidney, you always seem to be frustrated by your work, in other words, often making work that fights with itself :))...hmmm, how can i put that, since each person wrestles with themselves and struggles with themselves...i guess i meant that the work of all 3 of you that enters me and that I like (and each of you have made photographs and series of work that i feel very deeply and adore), only that for some reason Herve often seems to be not so much seeking David's "advice" to all...wait, this sounds so stupid now...(stupid online shit): I meant that i was surprised that the "need" to have David point how what makes Panos or Patricia or (you fill in the blank) other photos speak cannot always be prescribed or written about: it's easier to speak about what "doesn't" work than what does ;))))..I have immense respect for you and sidney and Herve, for your ideas, your lives and your experiences...
funny, i always think of your work as your pics from India, always...and was interested to see how the cowboy/home project pics different...in "feeling" not "content"...but, i meant to lump all 3 of you, since i know how much India (hindu, jainism, buddhism) mean to all 3 of you, as much as they do to me and that's why i alluded to them, 'cause i thought that orientation might be a way for each of u to enter your struggle with your own work....
HERVE:
I LOVE THE DYER BOOK...a bible :))))
SIDNEY:
I HOPE U WEREN'T OFFENDED WITH ME :)))...just wanted to jump in and add some support (my long post was meant to do that, not to discourage)...
so, CATHY, i'll never NOT refer to India again without invoking you :))))))))))....
as for the sadness...I mean, really, im super open, super sensitivity to people's sadness or struggles right now...it's all the metta i've been doing, so i just felt sad that there seemed to be so much struggle with you guys, when i want to say:
get back to a more richer form: the non-thinking part of who you 3 are, since that part of you (india/asia) is such a rich part of all 3 of your lives:
NOT THOUGHT BUT AWARENESS...
maybe that makes more sense ??
DAH:
cant wait to get with you and the corn pipe :))
hugs, gotta split
love
b
Posted by: bobblack | September 21, 2008 at 02:30 PM
CATHY....
laughing...you may raise your hand all you want!!
however, please note (and there must be some pro teachers out there who know the "kid in class" who requires the most attention...yes???):
i think many members of this forum would agree that i have spent many more hours, minutes, on the keyboard answering your questions above all others....not to mention private e-mails..i could be wrong, but this is a matter of record, so i think i am right on this one..
so getting "into the chamber" for the feast or gifts certainly cannot be something that you feel has alluded you...
perhaps if you sense some frustration on my part it is because often i feel that we are in exactly the SAME PLACE as over a year ago...
with exactly the SAME DIALOGUE and questions....
i also feel (perhaps incorrectly) that you could not possibly have read a comment i just wrote to you..sometimes i read your comment back to me and i think "omg , Cathy did NOT even read what i wrote or she could not possibly be asking me the same thing again"...
AND, rarely do we really have any of your work to discuss..so almost all discussions are totally hypothetical..the worst kind of photo discussion!!!
surely you have read the discussions i have had with the photographers here shooting essays (Erica, Patricia,James,Jonathan, Panos, Kyunghee, Rafal, David M. etc etc)...they shoot...we chat...they shoot some more...things move forward...so, we actually have some very nice essays going...
i would like nothing more than for you to be a part of it...i have always said this to you both on line and in person...
please simply post a link to new work and i will look...as do all of us here...yes, i may miss something, but i always catch up...
one thing i do know as a guide/teacher....a professorial truism...and i know this because at the Natgeo workshops i get "reviewed" by the students...there is a 100% guarantee that if i receive a "bad review" from a student, it is the one who demanded the most attention AND is, in fact, the one i spent the most time with...some cups cannot be filled...
now, before you slam the door and never speak to me again...(yes, i get that too!!)...just think about all of the above...i mean, is there part of any of it ringing true???
you know when we met in person in Santa Fe, i so enjoyed meeting you...so, i really liked you...your real life persona is totally cool...we had a lot of good laughs etc etc and good vibes all around...but, sometimes on line we totally misunderstand each other i think...i cannot explain this at all...
anyway, before we "break up" right here in front of everyone, let's try again....please send your link...please try to interpret me in a positive light and i do the same with you...
does that work???
hugs, peace et al, david
Posted by: david alan harvey | September 21, 2008 at 02:34 PM